I received a comment the other day on my site that I felt deserved some attention. This site is an open forum for discussion and ideas. Most of the views expressed on this site are mine. I mean it is my blog, come on. Get your own blog and you can rant all you want too. I welcome and encourage comments of all kinds on my writing, but beware that I have the right to respond to your comments in any fashion I want. Like I said it is my blog.
As I said, there was a comment made that I need to address. This comment addresses a few points (and solidifies a few) that I made in a post called The Myth of Christian Mythology.
Let’s get this straight. I am a Christian. I will not apologize for that fact. I have spent most of my life trying to figure out why I am a Christian and solidifying my faith. I did not just accept my parent’s beliefs blindly. I still today spend a large portion of my dedicating myself to study of my faith and the beliefs of others. This study has included both philosophical and scientific study. Am I an expert? No. The more I learn the more I learn that I don’t know. In my study I have found some fact and some fallacies. I adjust my understanding accordingly. It’s part of growing as a Christian and as a human.
This is why I feel compelled and qualified to speak for myself when replying to this post. I have not edited or removed anything written by the original commenter. All their words are in the order they were typed with my comments inbetween.
I’m late reading this blog post. So who knows if anyone will read this comment. But, as a true atheist, I feel like I need to. I hear talk from Christians all the time about the New Athiest movement…and they all seem geunienly perplexed as to how…why now? And I’m always stunned at the blindness.
Blindness? I think that there is every right to say “why now”. Faith in a higher being has been at an all time low over the past few years. With political correctness on the rise in the 80s and 90s and the shunning of public religious practices during that time, and to call Christians “blind” to wondering why over the past couple of years “New Atheism” has risen just doesn’t make sense to me.
Can no Christian figure out that this is a reaction to what has gone on for ten to twenty years on the far right and within the Evangelical Christian movement? Instead, Christians only explanation seems to be, as Shiz points out, that this atheism comes from “a place of being deeply hurt”.
The comments about being deeply hurt come from conversations with people we know personally. People we have sat and discussed the issues with. For Shiz it was her brother, for me many co-workers and close friends. And honestly this deeply hurt fits to an exact “T” every time. Those people I’ve talked to will even say so. I’m sorry that there was a generalization made. But I think as we will see later in your comment that you have made some even stronger generalizations that are even more hurtful. For the time being we will leave it at that.
That right there…isn’t that enough to enrage me? It should be. Telling me that the only reason I believe what I believe is because at some point I’ve been “deeply hurt”. That’s as insulting as it comes actually…and should be your first clue into this New Atheism. To be told that I believe what I believe because I’m “deeply hurt” as opposed to years of thinking and sorting out my own feelings on the subject to come to this conclusion just as you all came to your conclusion to believe in a God.
The deeply hurt part comes from people who grew up in the church, of which most of our generation has, and have since left for some reason or another. That’s deeply hurt.
I want to point out other lines from the above posts.
Donnie says of athiests that “It’s not enough to live and let live” but goes on to say:
“The good news is that we know the Good News” insinuating all athiests just don’t know what they know.
and
I’m not going to speak for the other posters because I don’t feel that is my job, everyone can speak for themselves and I for myself. I’m just going to speak to my experiences.
“like you said, you just KNOW that Christ is the Truth”. This particularly is the place that rage and hate comes from. Atheists consider Christians stupid because you cannot “know”. You can think it, feel it etc etc…but you cannot “know” it.
Here Pete you hit on the fundamental difference between Christian and non-Christian. The fact of knowing something that is scientifically intangible. I know that God exists and honestly there is no scientific explanation as to how I know. That is where atheist put up this red flag of logic and say “well then this is an impassable argument”. Because as an atheist you know by definition, that there is not a god. If you did not KNOW then you would be an agnostic at best. As an agnostic you must accept that you cannot know the true nature of God or anything beyond material phenomena. And since science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God then neither of our stances can be scientifically challenged.
So how do I know God exists? Because when I accepted that and came to the realization personally, something changed in my personality. I changed as a person. This was what is known to many as a conversion experience. Sigmund Freud, the noted atheist and psychiatrist, even wrote about experiences such as that. He himself was baffled by it and could not explain it fully. For more information on conversion experiences from a scientific standpoint I’m going to refer to Dr. Armand M. Nicholi, Jr. A few years ago he did a research study with Harvard University on the subject that was posted to the American Journal of Psychiatry. I would just look it up. Also for an extremely interesting read pick up Dr. Nicholi’s book The Question of God. It’s a theoretical conversation between Sigmund Freud and CS Lewis. It’s one of the most well written boots and thoroughly researched books I’ve read since Brian Greene’s The fabric of the Cosmos.
The atheists I know and have read never admit to “knowing” anything for certain. That’s the whole foundation of atheism is admitting you don’t know and cannot know anything for certain.
Like I said, agnostic, not atheism. The atheist I know , do know. They will stake their lives on it. Just ask Richard Dawkins if he knows. He calls the probability of God “vanishingly small” in the Nov. 2006 issue of Wired Magazine. I can promise you that Dawkins will stake his life on what he knows. Do you believe exactly as Richard Dawkins? I doubt it. Do you let him speak for you on matters of God? I hope not. I can tell you have the mind to speak for yourself on those matters.
But a Christian’s argument is well we just “know”. There’s no discourse from there. There’s no argument to be made with someone that just says “I know the Truth”. And the inability for atheists to argue with Christians over ideas etc without Christians falling back on well “I know” or “It’s in the bible” is where frustration and rage generate.
You’ve nailed the argument. Both sides are at an impasse because the argument has found it’s way to the root. We have come to a point where the argument can go no further. I won’t convince you, you won’t convince me. We both claim to know the truth and that the other person’s truth is incorrect.
I’m saying to Donnie, you can’t say you’re “willing to live and let live” while saying you “know the Truth” and “I know he has chosen us” and “I know that Christ is real” because clearly you’re not willing to live and let live.
You’re saying that to Donnie and I will let Donnie respond.
On that point…you’re not willing to live and let live when you and your ilk don’t allow people to marry whom they choose. You’re not willing to live and let live when you and your ilk decide how humanity is going to research cures for disease. You’re not willing to live and let live when you denigrate every other religion on the face of the planet. The list could go on and on…and on.
Ok now starts the generalizations. I will have you know that during a recent public vote that I voted for stem cell research. How did Donnie personally denigrate every other religion on the face of the planet? I didn’t see anything in his comment that said that.
That’s where the hatred comes from, your being in everyone else’s lives. And this New Atheism movement is a reaction to it. Not just because again as Shiz says we’re all just messed up and in dark places. Yeah, some things have gone too far sure, trying to remove Jesus and Christian symbols from various things have maybe gone too far…but the recognition has to be there that it’s gone too far on the Christian side too.
I’m going to disagree with you when you say that the New Atheism movement comes from a reaction to people having religion forced down their throat. New Atheism does not want live and let live either. Richard Dawkins wants the wants the abolition of religion. Sam Harris wants the abolition of religion. Penn Jillett wants to make religion “disappear” (sorry for the bad magic reference). These are the faces of New Atheism, and they do NOT want live and let live. They did not leave it open to interpretation. They want religion GONE.
Are you like these people? I doubt it. Do you believe that religion should be destroyed? I don’t know. I’ll let you speak for yourself. But with that said…let me speak for myself. Don’t think that every Christian is like the TV preachers. I’ll tell you right now that I abhor Jerry Falwell. And Pat Robertson is in the same boat. I am SICK that these people are saying they represent Christianity. Seriously Jerry, Pat…..SHUT UP! Ok that’s another topic for another blog post..
The rage and anger comes from arguing with Christians about simple facts like how old the earth and universe are…and seeing them teach children that a stegasaurus pulled their ancestors plows.
Ok another gross generalization and honestly I’m just going to ignore it and chalk it up to you being angry.
If Christians at large don’t believe these things….they need to be proactive and get these people out of positions where they are spokespeople for their religion. You don’t think every Ted Haggard is a poster child for a New Atheist movement.
Thanks, so now I’m like Ted Haggard. Another sick gross generalization. So are all muslims bomb toting murders? Seriously now. Now you’re just name calling.
You need to look closer at yourselves. Nothing I read above shows anyone questioning their own side and what maybe could have provoked this New Atheism.
That’s because you are assuming that we all think the Earth is 4000 years old, that gays aren’t people, that the Big Bang never happened, and that science is out to kill God. Wrong on every single account. The Earth is billions of years old, I have a lot of gay friends some of which are married and are some of my bestfriends. The big bang as it is known is scientific fact. And science is a wonderful tool. I actually work in a scientific field myself.
The discussion/argument I’ve had that sticks in my head is sitting at a dinner table with a girl saying her father who died of cancer was an atheist. A devout Christian at the table apologized to her that he was in hell. What is that? Just one example. Is that “showing someone the way to Christ”?? If God is vengeful enough that he sends someone to hell (granting there is such a place) for not believing in him, then did I want to believe in the first place? He’s given you free will as Donnie seems to agree, but you use that to not believe…and you go to hell? Ok.
Well on behalf of Christians I apologize for the lack of tact of the person at the table with you. None of us can truly know the heart of a person and how God sees that person.
As for why God would “send” someone to hell. He doesn’t. We make that decision ourselves. Is there a hell? Well since I believe that there is a heaven then logic would dictate that there must be an opposite. You can’t have a bad if there is no good. And you can’t have a good if there is no bad. But that is a discussion for a whole other blog post.
Shiz’s blog awhile back had a discussion about divorce and Christians posted that it must be the fault of atheism.
While Shiz did post on my blog I will let her defend her statements on her own blog which I’m sure she will be happy to do.
Christians disallow people from marrying whom they want, then blame athiests for the divorce rate.
I’m going to assume you are talking about gay marriage here since you did not qualify your point. And I will refer you to my previous statement about the gay couples that I know and are good friends with. Do I have a problem with them being married? Not at all.
Concertman, you talk about the New Atheism reveling in pointing out the inconsistencies they find between Christians and the bible. Isn’t that a pretty big one, where you deny marriage for people based on religion, but allow divorce. It’s inconsistencies like this that can’t be ignored when you’re disallowing people from marrying and receiving the basic services this allows.
Again, another generalization, and again read the above comments. I don’t mind you poking your finger in my chest but please back up your statements with hard facts and not loose generalizations.
If the Christian movement wasn’t at the forefront of disallowing certain marriages and stem cell research etc…then you wouldn’t be getting called out on inconsistencies.
And again…
If you’re going to be at the forefront of these movements, shouldn’t you expect to have your beliefs criticised?
Did I say I don’t expect my beliefs to be criticized? Not at all. In the words of Cheerleader #1 from Not Another Teen Movie “You better bring it.”. Sorry, I’m into the cheesey movies.
How about, if you’re going to disallow by law gay marriage…then you have to make a law saying you can only marry once? How would that go over? Or as they are doing in Oregon…make a law that says you have to prove after three years of marriage your ability to pro-create as that’s the basis for marriage the Evengelical Christian movement says. I could go on and on with inconsistencies and you’ve heard them….but the point is, if you’re the leader against these things it’s inconceivable that you shouldn’t expects your beliefs to be picked apart.
Ok, serisouly…argument fell apart and you let it get personal. You can pick at my beliefs but don’t put beliefs on me that I don’t state that I have. By me saying I’m a Christian doesn’t mean I’m stupid and ignorant. I have spent years evaluating my own belief and question it all the time because when it something that I am basing my life on…I want to make sure I’m right. So by putting that stereotype on me only goes to show that there is possibly a new bigotry on the rise.
Do I hate Atheist? If anyone even thinks that or suggest that just shows how little they actually know me.
I will invite anyone to comment on this post but I ask one thing. Respect. No matter what the person’s beliefs are. If someone start flaming other people in the comments then those comments will be pointed out and possibly removed along with all subsiquent comments.
